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Kill Bill...
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beltmann
Studio Exec


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 2341
Location: West Bend, WI

PostPosted: 10.13.2003 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, access (or the lack of it for most of us) is my pet peeve when it comes to studying cinema. After years of trolling video stores, rummage sales, and the back rooms of libraries, I've managed to see an awful lot of "obscure" stuff, but not nearly as much as I would like. I joined Netflix more than 3 years ago, and despite my occasional frustrations regarding their stocking policies, it's still the best way to find stuff in bulk that I've encountered. Many of those I listed above are carried by Netflix (a few I even saw through them myself).

Eric
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beltmann
Studio Exec


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 2341
Location: West Bend, WI

PostPosted: 10.13.2003 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, Al, welcome. Glad you decided to join us!

Eric
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Al
Grip


Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 10

PostPosted: 10.13.2003 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Eric! I'm a huge movie fan but have never studied film. Just sort of watch things that I find interesting and enjoy wandering down new artistic paths, so to speak. Often I find myself enjoying films but not being able to articulate what I find "special" about them, because I have no frame of reference for discussion other than having seen a lot of movies Very Happy (compared to average folks, not you all).

But, this thread isn't about me, so I have a few other KB thoughts...

1) I was reading a review (now I can't find it online) that compared (only superficially) the Crazy 88 fight and the Battle with the Agent Smiths in Matrix:Reloaded. As I rewatched KB I was really reminded again how much that whole Reloaded sequence bothered me... And THAT reminded me of the first time I saw CGI subbed in for actors in a fight, which was in Blade II, which (predictably) also rubbed me the wrong way. Basically, if I wanted to watch computer figures fight I'd fire up the PC/playstation, whatever. With human subjects (even with wire or SFX assistance) it's an impressive display that stimulates the imagination by showing real people accomplish the impossible. With CGI anything is possible for a price... I think that the CGI is better used bringing impossible large scale sequences to life (LOR:TT and RTK?) or creating otherwise impossible characters (The Hulk, Gollum, etc.).

2) The cinematic, spectacular quality of the action/violence shouldn't be dismissed (not that people have been dismissing this as just another action flick)... I read a review on MSN's Slate (haven't figured out links in posts yet, sorry) where the reviewer said at the end that this is the movie that Robert Rodriguez has been trying to make but hasn't pulled off yet. I totally agree with that comment. Once Upon A Time In Mexico was definetly a fun movie, but it didn't have that "special" quality to the action that KB has (for all of it's slow motion attempts.....).

Al
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Mark Dujsik
Director


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: 10.13.2003 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al wrote:
I think that the CGI is better used bringing impossible large scale sequences to life (LOR:TT and RTK?) or creating otherwise impossible characters (The Hulk, Gollum, etc.).


Well since we're somewhat talking about a movie that I was able to see in its entirety without the projector breaking with only 15 minutes left ( Mad ), I think the Neo vs. multiple Smiths sequence needed CG to make it work, because it is a large scale battle that requires "impossible" characters (an overwhelming number of the same character in this case). That sequence didn't depend solely on CG either and also used split screen and stunt doubles to great effect.
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The Third M?n
Studio Exec


Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Chasing Stef around post-war Vienna

PostPosted: 10.13.2003 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You see, I'm planning to sneak on with a bunch of friends this Friday to see Kill Bill. Since it's an 18 here, meaning that no-one below that age is permitted to see it, my friends and I are going to get tickets for someting else and then we'll go to Kill Bill's screening. I've never done this before, but hopefully it works... I'm dying to see it!
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Al
Grip


Joined: 13 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: 10.13.2003 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Mark Dujsik]I think the Neo vs. multiple Smiths sequence needed CG to make it work, because it is a large scale battle that requires "impossible" characters (an overwhelming number of the same character in this case). That sequence didn't depend solely on CG either and also used split screen and stunt doubles to great effect.[/quote]

I definetly agree that the scene couldn't have been created as it was without CG. I suppose I should clarify what effects in particular I didn't like... The substitution of 3D CG characters for "primary" actors is what bothers me I think. If a character is CG throughout the film, great. If CG is used to create legions of fighters for a battle, great. If you sneak in a CG "stunt double" that you're showing close up, it bothers me.

I'm definetly not opposed to CG in movies and I'm as excited as anyone about the possibilites that they open up creatively. I know that it's not just a "cop out" of things that could be done with photographic techniques and that CG is an art form in and of itself. What can I say, I find seeing the hero replaced for half second bursts with a 3D model unappealing... To zero in on it, I think that I dislike it specifically when it's used to replace people... Don't know why, but it just sticks in my craw... (There's an expression for ya! Very Happy I think they said that in Open Range...)

Al
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Mark Dujsik
Director


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 212
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: 10.13.2003 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al wrote:
The substitution of 3D CG characters for "primary" actors is what bothers me I think. If a character is CG throughout the film, great. If CG is used to create legions of fighters for a battle, great. If you sneak in a CG "stunt double" that you're showing close up, it bothers me.


Yeah, I have yet to be convinced by a CG "stunt double." But then again, I wouldn't know it if I was, right?
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the night watchman
Studio Exec


Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Dark, run-down shack by the graveyard.

PostPosted: 10.14.2003 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Third M?n wrote:
You see, I'm planning to sneak on with a bunch of friends this Friday to see Kill Bill. I've never done this before, but hopefully it works... I'm dying to see it!


Best of luck, you little rebel. Wink

Al, Ebert compared the battle against the Smiths in Reloaded to the battle against the Crazy 88s in Kill Bill, if that's the review you're thinking of.
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matt header
Studio Exec


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 623
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: 10.14.2003 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I watched "Kill Bill" here in Milwaukee a couple days ago, the audience was generally really good: not talkative but really into it, enhancing the energy and even applauding at the end (I love it when audiences do that). There was one audience moment I will never forget, though; when the Bride is at the House of Blue Leaves during the monster fight scene, there's a moment when she kills about three assailants on the staircase in a matter of seconds.

Says one guy a couple rows behind me: "Damn, that was cold!"

Says the other guy sitting next to him: "Too bad."

I guess I was just caught up in the moment, but I laughed uproariously at that comment.
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Danny Baldwin
Studio Exec


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1354
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: 10.14.2003 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Third M?n wrote:
You see, I'm planning to sneak on with a bunch of friends this Friday to see Kill Bill. Since it's an 18 here, meaning that no-one below that age is permitted to see it, my friends and I are going to get tickets for someting else and then we'll go to Kill Bill's screening. I've never done this before, but hopefully it works... I'm dying to see it!


Eeeeg. While I do like the fact that the UK has a "15" rating as opposed to "17," quite a few of the movies earn "18's". That sucks.
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Michael Scrutchin
Studio President


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 832
Location: Pearland, TX

PostPosted: 10.14.2003 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I just found this: HKFlix.com Kill Bill Study Guide. Good stuff.
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filmsRpriceless
Camera Operator


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 65

PostPosted: 10.15.2003 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, Michael!
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the night watchman
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Joined: 27 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: 10.15.2003 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So did you get in to see Kill Bill, Mr. Lime? With your knowledge of sewers it ought to have been a breeze. Wink
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the night watchman
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Joined: 27 Jun 2003
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Location: Dark, run-down shack by the graveyard.

PostPosted: 10.15.2003 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, thanks, Michael. Here's the origin of The Bride's "flashback theme":

"Of particular note is the theme song to THE GREEN HORNET. THE GREEN HORNET, as you'll no doubt remember, was the 1966-67 TV series that co-starred the late, great Bruce Lee as Kato, the mask-adorned sidekick to The Green Hornet. This theme song is instantly recognizable by the quick succession of trumpeted staccato 16th notes that make up its melody."

Now I'll be able to sleep tonight.
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Monkeypox
Cinematographer


Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 156
Location: TX

PostPosted: 10.15.2003 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
Michael B. Scrutchin wrote:


In the meantime, check out the opposing takes on it by Sean O'Connell and Jeremiah Kipp at filmcritic.com.


Thanks for the link, Michael. I always enjoy reading Jeremiah's stuff--I think he's an excellent critic and a truly gifted writer--but sometimes I think he betrays an agenda that strikes me as rather insignificant. Too often he sacrifices accuracy in favor of contrarianism, as if to make a point, an extreme, reactionary position is required. While I consider his criticisms of the movie valid, I think he overstates his case. (Perhaps my response is more indicative of my own quirks, which include resisting extreme reactions, either positive or negative. I prefer to keep a certain degree of perspective, for better or worse.)

Eric


I tend to agree with Kipp on this one, for the most part. It's perhaps a good pulpy B-movie paying homage to lesser-seen, less-polished, but more original B-movies and serials. I'd enjoy watching it on a lazy Saturday afternoon, Double Shock Theatre-style, but it's not something I feel is worth paying for. Especially not twice.

On Kipp, I like most of his reviews, and feel that his review of MY film was probably the most accurate and poignant. So on this I could be biased.

And I likely have my own biases when it comes to QT... I liked Jackie Brown, loved Reservoir Dogs, but was ambivalent to Pulp Fiction, and really didn't like this movie much at all. In too many of Tarantino's films, I find myself not caring.

Of course, the more he casts Uma Thurman, the less I'm likely to care.
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