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How do you feel about gay marriage?
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The Third M?n
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PostPosted: 03.27.2004 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm finding myself agreeing with most of what Ringbearer's saying actually. I suppose it's because we come from rather similar backgrounds.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 03.27.2004 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess my question is this: How do you justify the idea that the government has the right to enforce one group's chosen religion and superstitions on everyone else? You must know not everyone agrees that being gay is Satan-inspired urge that must be controlled. Banning gay marriage because "God is against it" is really no different than banning beef because of the Hindu belief that the cow is a sacred animal.
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 03.27.2004 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that I do not share any of Ringbearer and ThirdM?n's viewpoints on as to why I am against it.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 03.27.2004 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noted.
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Tooky Cat
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PostPosted: 03.27.2004 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I myself don't believe that a gay man is really a straight man acting on normally suppressed urges. I believe a gay man is acting on completely natural and uncontrollable feelings that exist regardless of the conditions in which they are present. I believe there is no control involved at all whatsoever. It hardly seems fitting to condemn somebody for something they had no say in.
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The Ringbearer
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PostPosted: 03.27.2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Night Watchman - you are right, the government does not hold those rights. But I'm inclined to believe that it wouldn't be any different than many of the laws we have now - and were probably chosen (of course, not admittedly) for similar reasons. I, however, hold the right to my own beliefs and as long as I'm still only "one voice" in a country among voices, I'm still voting against it with all my heart. On religious grounds and on moral grounds. Hopefully, enough people in the government agree that homosexuality is morally and spiritually wrong and they vote against it - just like any other bill that gets introduced. If it becomes legal, I'm not going to go on a mad rant and flee the country because everyone is all of a sudden "living in sin." This country (and every other country) is already living in sin - I'm just proposing to live in a little less. Very Happy
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Last edited by The Ringbearer on 03.27.2004 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The Ringbearer
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PostPosted: 03.27.2004 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tooky Cat - please understand, I am not trying to condemn anyone. I don't believe in condemning anyone for their beliefs no matter how wrong I find them to be (unless, obviously, their beliefs involve physically hurting someone).
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 03.28.2004 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ringbearer, of course you are correct that all laws are essentially moral laws, in that all laws regulate behavior. However, the majority should not pass laws simply by virtue of being in the majority. If we as a nation value democracy and pluralism, then the majority has a responsibility to respect--and even protect--the rights of those in the minority. Let's turn the tables: Let's imagine that you live in a nation where atheism is the clear majority opinion. Let's pretend the majority passes a law banning religious practices of any kind. Reading Scripture will henceforth deposit you in the clink. Would you object? And how will you feel when the majority justifies the new law, arguing that the majority supports it, and "enough people in the government" voted for it?



To truly protect our own ability to believe and behave as we see fit, we must ensure that everyone always has that same freedom--including those in the minority, and including those whose private beliefs and private behaviors we disagree with.



The Ringbearer wrote:
This country (and every other country) is already living in sin - I'm just proposing to live in a little less. Very Happy


Perhaps your aim might be better achieved if we overlooked homosexuality for now and instead focused on banning pre-marital sex among heterosexuals. If you'd like to reduce national "sin," why not begin with the majority?
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 03.28.2004 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Years ago I read a fascinating book entitled "Taking a Chance on God," about reconciling homosexuality with Scripture. Thought I'd mention it here, since it might make interesting reading for everyone.



Although I attend a non-denominational, independent Christian church, I'm frequently at odds with my fundamentalist friends, often because I'm unwilling to confuse cultural traditions with eternal truths, and often because I am willing to consider the ways fundamentalist readings are often derived from a desire to preserve old traditions, and justify old prejudices.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 03.28.2004 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
However, the majority should not pass laws simply by virtue of being in the majority. If we as a nation value democracy and pluralism, then the majority has a responsibility to respect--and even protect--the rights of those in the minority. Let's turn the tables: Let's imagine that you live in a nation where atheism is the clear majority opinion. Let's pretend the majority passes a law banning religious practices of any kind. Reading Scripture will henceforth deposit you in the clink. Would you object? And how will you feel when the majority justifies the new law, arguing that the majority supports it, and "enough people in the government" voted for it?




Bingo. There are certainly people out there who engage in activities I find morally objectionable, but who are not posing any clear threat to anyone else's freedom. While I may choose to become active in an attempt to turn those people toward my way of seeing things, I would never vote for a law prohibiting them from living life as they choose.
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Michael Scrutchin
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PostPosted: 03.28.2004 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't quite comprehend how anyone could consider one's sexual orientation a "choice."
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Last edited by Michael Scrutchin on 03.28.2004 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 03.28.2004 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at Kissing Jessica Stein. Laughing
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 03.28.2004 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
Look at Kissing Jessica Stein. Laughing


And I suppose Joey on Friends is an accurate representation of heterosexuality? Very Happy
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Tooky Cat
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PostPosted: 03.28.2004 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well obviously we have the separation of church and state thing (though how much that really exists is debateable itself), but since that is supposed to be the case, what is the main argument against homosexuality completely disregarding all religious beliefs? How do you tell an atheistic gay man that they're living their immorally?
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matt header
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PostPosted: 03.29.2004 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe no person is born gay, I DO believe we (or at least, most of us) have sexual urges toward members of the same sex (whether we admit it or not - and in most cases not; lol). I believe we have control over our urges the same way we have control over NORMAL sexual urges. If you believe homosexuality really is wrong (the way I think it is) and you were to experience an urge toward someone of the same sex, you should try to keep control of yourself and realize that this (remember, I'm extremely spiritual/religious) is Satan speaking to you and it is not a pure desire.




Certainly you're right that all of us have sexual urges towards members of the same sex - I think that's natural, and I think that anyone who denies that is involved in some serious narrowmindedness. But I disagree that acting upon those urges pushes it into the territory of sin, and that we should suppress those urges if they are strong. I know this is getting into a sticky situation, since Ringbearer admitted to being very spiritual and religious and I am definitely not, but I think if one feels extremely strong urges for something - urges one feels irrepressibly compelled to act upon, urges that may not be condoned by society - it is a sign that that is what the person desires, craves, wants, perhaps needs. I do have sort of hedonistic viewpoint on life - if it gives you pleasure and isn't extremely harmful to you or to others, go ahead and do it - but I think suppressing urges is dangerous. Neglecting desires is denying the body the ability to experience full contentment.



Of course, I will reiterate that this is my own personal argument, my way of living life - and as I respect those who differ in their viewpoints and eagerly listen to their arguments, I would hope that those same people would respect my viewpoints by listening to them and, if possible, allowing me to live them out without trying to bury them under the guise of federal law.



Quote:
Look at Kissing Jessica Stein.




Yeah! Another romantic comedy in which the freespirited, cutesy, trendy girl or boy enjoys homosexuality fully only to be rescued from their heathen queerness by the heroic hetero! Yeah! Hooray!



(Danny, I know you were mostly being facetious with that reference, but Kissing Jessica Stein pisses me off. Seriously pisses me off.)
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