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iverson_boss
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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: 01.07.2005 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, this is for beltmann.

Quote:
Would you consider Alexander "gay propaganda" designed to sway your children to join the homosexual ranks? Seems strange, since neither Oliver Stone nor Colin Farrell are gay. Isn't it possible that they had a larger artistic purpose in mind than merely spreading propaganda?



I would consider Alexander as a sort of gay propaganda. They are telling people, especially my kids is what I'm worried about, that to be gay is okay. (I'm a conservative, if you didn't realize it yet. Very Happy ) It doesn't mean that the actor or producer have to be gay. It just means that they are very accepting and want to get their views out.

Quote:
Isn't it possible that they had a larger artistic purpose in mind than merely spreading propaganda?


I didn't really catch any significant artistic purposes in the movie except the downplay of Alexanders greatness. BEING GAY ISN'T THE OLNY THING I'M TALKING ABOUT! I want people on this forum to realize that! The movie showed Alexander as a drunk, depressed, and lost person. I, as a historian, found Alexander the Great much more interesting than the movie portrayed. He did have a drinking problem and he did have many other problems; but thats what's great about him, he coped with it all and was able to conquer most of the known world (in those times).



Next issue.

Quote:
Side question: Would you consider those films that depict heterosexual kissing to be hetero propaganda?


This is a very good question. I thank you for actually thinking about this subject and being able to come up with quetions such as this one. My answer to this is also very conservative, in a way. I would consider that heterosexaul kissing is a natrual part of the reproductive cycle of the homo sapien race. Since it is widely practiced and people are used to seeing it, I don't think that you can exactly call that propaganda.

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Welcome to the board, by the way. One of the coolest things about this board is its weird mix of brutal honesty and cordial respect for difference of opinion.


Also, thank you for welcoming me. As I was looking online, I caught sight of this forum and saw that you guys needed a conservative opinion Very Happy . I said. "What the heck, I'll share some of my excellent ideas with them." Wink
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iverson_boss
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PostPosted: 01.07.2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a reply to Jim Harper.

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure how you can claim that being homosexual 'downplays' someone's great achievements, but there you go.



Notice that I didn't say
Quote:
that being homosexual 'downplays' someone's great achievements


I said that the movie did not focus on his great achievements but rather on his sexuality. It downplayed his greatness by showing more of his problems and not enough of his achievements.



Next issue.

Quote:
the idea that Alexander was homosexual is a widely-discussed issue of history, with some evidence to support it.


It is a widely-discussed issue, but there is minimal evidence to support it. To be honest with you, there is almost no evidence of it at all. The olny evidence is that he had a long life relationship with his best friend. Alexander and his friend were very close and probably kissed each other on the lips, which was a very common way to express your love towards a male. They were not gay, they were just very close and tusted each other.
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 01.07.2005 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iverson_boss wrote:
I'm a conservative, if you didn't realize it yet.


I have finally found a tag-teamer on the board! But, Alexander, of all movies to be enraged about?
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iverson_boss
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is for the night watchman.

Quote:
What if your kid was gay? Wouldn't like him or her to see a movie that shows that sexual preference is no impediment to great accomplishments? Maybe I'm missing what exactly you consider propaganda in the film. I should mention I haven't seen the movie, but your post is the first reaction I've heard that Alexander can somehow work as gay propoganda.


Again, I teach my kids that being gay is not right. (THIS IS MY OPINION! Don't start harassing me about my views, please.) I believe that they also understand that being homosexual ins't right. So thats the end to that subject. Some of you might be thinking that I'm very close-minded and all, but I'm not. I just have my believes and morals and stick by them.
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iverson_boss
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can buy into a parent's concern, but here's a question:



Why are you so unhappy if the MPAA rated the movie R and your kid cannot attend without your permission?




Also, very good question! But, you have to look at this realistically. Kids are going to watch rated R movies, whether we what them or not. They will watch it at some friends house or in our public schools (which are promoting the gay and lesbian views, but thats another subject). After the movie, liberals(most teachers!), will tell them that there is nothing wrong with being gay and their whole spiel on how its okay to be gay. Then, my kids might be confused on whats right and wrong in this crazy world.
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iverson_boss
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have finally found a tag-teamer on the board! But, Alexander, of all movies to be enraged about?




I'm not enraged about this movie, I just think it was the worst film, thats it. It has nothing that you are able to take from it and apply it in real life. Also, read some reviews and see how others view it. I just didn't like the movie at all, period.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iverson_boss wrote:
[...] our public schools (which are promoting the gay and lesbian views, but thats another subject) [...] liberals(most teachers!), will tell them that there is nothing wrong with being gay and their whole spiel on how its okay to be gay.




I don't mean to set this thread off an a tangent, and I promise I won't debate morality issues, but what exactly is being taught in public schools today on the issue of homosexuality? I ask because the town I live in is pretty conservative, and when the school board elections are up, the opinion section in the local paper is rife with complaints that "liberal" public schools teach a "pro-gay" curriculum.



For the longest time I considered such complaints nothing more than knee-jerk right-wing horse shit. In other words, the moral dichotomy that the conservatives in my town often express goes like this: "If it don't express conservative views, then it's promoting liberal ones.? Such is an oversimplification, of course; after all, one does not need to take a political position, or a moral one for that matter, when investigating or reporting on a subject.



I have not followed the K-12 curriculum since I graduated in 1987, and back then homosexuality was just coming out of the closet, so to speak. It had been officially de-classed as a form of abnormal psychology just ten years earlier, and I clearly remember people still getting used to the idea that this once-demonized sexual orientation was, regardless of individual moral opinion, not madness. Moreover, this was still before AIDS was fully understood, and was still considered a "gay disease." Most of my teachers seemed uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality, and if it was breached, the insipient attitude they displayed was certainly less than what we would today consider liberal.



I understand times have changed since then, but since I haven't read any high school sex ed textbooks in over 20 years, I'm wondering whether there really is a "pro-gay" slant toward homosexuality, or if conservatives are reacting to what is really objective neutrality. After all, to my mind "pro-gay" means ?being in favor of homosexuality," even to the point of encouraging it, which is certainly not the same as teaching that homosexuality is not psychologically abberant. In other words, reporting accurate and up-to-date information about the psychological, genetic, environmental, etc. aspects of homosexuality is not the same as saying that being gay is a moral positive.



Eric and Danny, maybe you two can shed some light on this too, since you?re both still close to high school, in one way or another.
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Jim Harper
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iverson_boss wrote:
I said that the movie did not focus on his great achievements but rather on his sexuality. It downplayed his greatness by showing more of his problems and not enough of his achievements.




Well, I think it comes down to perspective there: I don't see his sexuality (if he was indeed gay) as being a problem. I'd rather see a fully-rounded picture of a historical character (portraying, for example, Alexander's violent temper and his megalomania as well as his bravery and intelligence) than one that presented only one side. Perhaps the movie hasn't done this, but I don't see presenting him as a homosexual as a problem. I'd certainly rather see a flawed but realistic individual than yet another badly-researched picture of him as an almost superhuman hero.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the night watchman wrote:
Eric and Danny, maybe you two can shed some light on this too, since you?re both still close to high school, in one way or another.


My own high school experience mirrors yours NW, probably because we're close in age. I agree that back then schools took an awkward, uncomfortable stance on the subject, which inadvertently taught negative lessons about homosexuality. Students were openly hateful towards gay peers, and the schools did little to prevent it.



Speaking now, as a teacher, I can report that things are certainly different. Even though West Bend is literally one of the most conservative communities in the entire state, what's astonishing is how so many students strive to be tolerant rather than hateful. The official school policy remains awkward, but the goal is objective neutrality. There is definitely not a "pro-gay" conspiracy.



That said, I can't speak for other school districts around the country.



Eric
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iverson_boss wrote:
But, you have to look at this realistically. Kids are going to watch rated R movies, whether we what them or not.


But we have to consider this rationally: Using this logic, no filmmaker should be able to make any movie that might offend any segment of the viewing audience. I sympathize with your point, iverson_boss--I'm a new parent myself, and can foresee how difficult it will be to shield my daughter from negative influences--but you've expressed a dangerous slippery slope that ultimately leads to censorship and the shutting down of cultural discourse. Seems to me the conservative stance ought to be about protecting Stone's right to say what he wants as an artist, even if we disagree with it.



Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iverson_boss wrote:
Also, very good question! But, you have to look at this realistically. Kids are going to watch rated R movies, whether we what them or not. They will watch it at some friends house or in our public schools (which are promoting the gay and lesbian views, but thats another subject).


Isn't it easier to monitor what your kid is doing at a friend's house or not sign their permission slip to see an R-rated movie in schoool than to completely censor everything gay and lesbian? The MPAA is very conservative, and I think that most of the material you're objecting to is rated R. And, I think we can confirm that no one becomes gay at seventeen.
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the night watchman wrote:
I don't mean to set this thread off an a tangent, and I promise I won't debate morality issues, but what exactly is being taught in public schools today on the issue of homosexuality?


I think the very problem is that they shed too much light on the issue. For me, I'm not bothered by being taught about homosexuality in society, but they make it seem like such a big deal. In other words, the teachers who choose to discuss such matters, most of which are transparently liberal, seem like gay rights activists. There's no practicality in discussing the issue; it's seen as a two sided debate. According the teachers who have talked about it in my classes, you're either a biggot or you're not. I try to keep my mouth shut about such things.



the night watchman wrote:
For the longest time I considered such complaints nothing more than knee-jerk right-wing horse shit. In other words, the moral dichotomy that the conservatives in my town often express goes like this: "If it don't express conservative views, then it's promoting liberal ones.?


The thing is: is it really the place to talk about homosexuality in the way they do? I think that it's fine to be talking about Alexander and say that there is a lack of evidence supporting his homosexuality. I think it's fine to discuss it in all historical context. But, the attempt to make everyone "more open to other people", in some kind of an attempt to make the campus more friendly, only makes the teachers look ridiculous and more anti-gay minds to arise. Now, I don't think being gay is necessarily right, but does it matter to me if others are? No. It's where the teachers start to go out of their way to "fight for the right" which makes the entire handling of the issue offensive, in a way.



the night watchman wrote:
I have not followed the K-12 curriculum since I graduated in 1987, and back then homosexuality was just coming out of the closet, so to speak. It had been officially de-classed as a form of abnormal psychology just ten years earlier, and I clearly remember people still getting used to the idea that this once-demonized sexual orientation was, regardless of individual moral opinion, not madness.


I think society has become tolerant enough to not have to discuss it so openly anymore. If you're gay, you're gay. If you're not, you're not. Let's not try to impose anyone else's preferences on others. Now, we have a school asking twelve-year-olds to "consider" whether they're gay or not, in the U.S. Again, the teachers are taking it too far.





the night watchman wrote:
I understand times have changed since then, but since I haven't read any high school sex ed textbooks in over 20 years, I'm wondering whether there really is a "pro-gay" slant toward homosexuality, or if conservatives are reacting to what is really objective neutrality.


I wouldn't call it "pro-gay", but I would call it more overly accepting and one-sided. The teachers tell you that gay marriage should be instituted and it is a necessity for civil rights. I think their politics have become fanatical, for no real purpose. But, I don't think anyone could be influenced to become gay through, at least, what I have seen in the school system. Now, the whole twelve-year-olds thing is a different story. I dunno, though. Maybe I am unaffected because I've already made up my mind on sexuality. Until we have scientific evidence, if we ever do, that people are born gay, I think the issue should be handled with much less bias.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
Even though West Bend is literally one of the most conservative communities in the entire state, what's astonishing is how so many students strive to be tolerant rather than hateful.




I heard a report on NPR recently that, while younger conservatives reflect many of the views of their conservative parents, they also tend to be more accepting of gay rights and equality than the older crowd. I find that reassuring.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
It's where the teachers start to go out of their way to "fight for the right" which makes the entire handling of the issue offensive, in a way.


Perhaps I should mention that at the last Teachers Convention, there was a seminar entitled, "Playing For the Other Team: Convincing Students to Watch Will & Grace and Then Convert to Homosexuality." It was part of a double feature with "Nail 'Em to the Cross: Making Creationists Feel Dumber Than Stumps."



Eric
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PostPosted: 01.08.2005 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn?t it funny how such a good discussion can get started merely by bringing up Brad Pitt? Cool
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