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Regarding abortion...
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The Third M?n
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 9:08 am    Post subject: Regarding abortion... Reply with quote

What do you think about it? Are you pro-life, do you think it's wrong or right to commit abortion?
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Michael Scrutchin
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not as clear-cut as "wrong" or "right."
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. There are many variables to consider, not least of which is the type of procedure, as well as the factors surrounding conception. For me, though, the central question concerns when human life begins, at conception or otherwise. Since doctors, politicians, and theologians can't seem to agree, the morality of abortion remains hopelessly confused--unresolvable except on a personal level.

Eric
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The Third M?n
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course it isn't all a matter of 'wrong' or 'right', 'black' and 'white, etc (hey that rhymes...) However, it has been scientifically proven that when the spermatozoid fertilises the ovum, a new human being is created as it has its own set of chromosomes. There are many who think that life begins when the foetus reaches the uterus whereas others believe that it is when the baby is born (how ridiculous is that?)
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pure Republican, except on abortion and gay-rights.

Yes, I am for it. Despite what many others may believe, I think it's mostly a religious issue.

I'm primarily for it because I do not think that our adoption system (though extremely proficient) is as stable as it needs to be (and I don't think that it will ever be). Putting yourself in child's shoes--would you rather a) grow up in a home with a mother and/or father that is not able to care for you, b) grow up in an shelter, waiting and waiting for someone to come and take you, or c) die before your birthdate.

I would pick the third. There are many, many variables to take in account for, one of the biggest is location. That's why socitiety as a whole (putting religion and ethics beside) will never be able to decide as a whole.
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Mark Dujsik
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In one of the religion threads already here, I was going to joke, "I hope we talk about abortion next!" Rolling Eyes
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
Putting yourself in child's shoes--would you rather a) grow up in a home with a mother and/or father that is not able to care for you, b) grow up in an shelter, waiting and waiting for someone to come and take you, or c) die before your birthdate.

I would pick the third.


Yes, but if you were a fetus, you wouldn't be the one making the choice. More importantly, some children might select one of your other options, if given the choice themselves. Why should your preference be made the social standard?

I don't think the "mercy" argument has a lot of weight. Place it in a different context: Some of us might prefer death to a lifetime jail sentence, but does that mean no convict has the right to prefer jail? Even in the worst conditions, a human life can find value.

Eric
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I hope this thread remains pleasant. I think the real problem is not whether abortion is right or wrong, but why so many unwanted pregnancies exist. That is the issue that proponents and opponents ought to be concerned with. But it's easier to take the moral high ground and shout "Right to life!" or "Right to choose!" than it is to really consider the real problem, especially if pragmatically thinking about the issue necessitates considering options you might not want to admit.

As far as abortion goes, my thought is this: Outlawing abortion is not going to stop abortion. What it's going to do is put women at risk by forcing them to seek out less-than-suitable conditions for the procedure. Women should be allowed to make the choice they want, but I see no real problem in requiring them to attend an objective seminar first that explores alternate options to abortion and potential consequences of abortion.

I can't agree with anyone who says life begins at conception. A clump of cells is not a human being any more than a corpse is a human being. The philosophical argument that a zygote or an embryo is a potential human is fallacious, because if the mother is dead set on getting an abortion then no inherent potential exists any more than if the zygote or embryo were aborted through unplanned accident or physical complications. Furthermore, even the most ardent pro-lifer allows for the acceptability of abortion under "special circumstances," such as rape, incest, or if the life of the mother is at stake. This clause clearly demonstrates that even they place the life of a "born individual" before than the life of an "unborn individual."

In the end, I think there are better choices than abortion, but taking away the option solves nothing.
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the night watchman wrote:
Man, I hope this thread remains pleasant. I think the real problem is not whether abortion is right or wrong, but why so many unwanted pregnancies exist. That is the issue that proponents and opponents ought to be concerned with. But it's easier to take the moral high ground and shout "Right to life!" or "Right to choose!" than it is to really consider the real problem, especially if pragmatically thinking about the issue necessitates considering options you might not want to admit.

As far as abortion goes, my thought is this: Outlawing abortion is not going to stop abortion. What it's going to do is put women at risk by forcing them to seek out less-than-suitable conditions for the procedure. Women should be allowed to make the choice they want, but I see no real problem in requiring them to attend an objective seminar first that explores alternate options to abortion and potential consequences of abortion.

I can't agree with anyone who says life begins at conception. A clump of cells is not a human being any more than a corpse is a human being. The philosophical argument that a zygote or an embryo is a potential human is fallacious, because if the mother is dead set on getting an abortion then no inherent potential exists any more than if the zygote or embryo were aborted through unplanned accident or physical complications. Furthermore, even the most ardent pro-lifer allows for the acceptability of abortion under "special circumstances," such as rape, incest, or if the life of the mother is at stake. This clause clearly demonstrates that even they place the life of a "born individual" before than the life of an "unborn individual."

In the end, I think there are better choices than abortion, but taking away the option solves nothing.


I agree with just aout every aspect of that. Bravo.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Thank you, Danny.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the night watchman wrote:
I think the real problem is not whether abortion is right or wrong, but why so many unwanted pregnancies exist. That is the issue that proponents and opponents ought to be concerned with.


I agree entirely.

the night watchman wrote:
A clump of cells is not a human being any more than a corpse is a human being.


I'm not sure I can accept your analogy. Surely a clump of live human cells is closer to a "born individual" than a corpse, which is a clump of dead or dying cells?

the night watchman wrote:
The philosophical argument that a zygote or an embryo is a potential human is fallacious, because if the mother is dead set on getting an abortion then no inherent potential exists any more than if the zygote or embryo were aborted through unplanned accident or physical complications.


Except unplanned accidents and physical complications are natural interventions, while abortions are artificial interventions. By potential human, I think most pro-lifers mean a viable life that will certainly reach born status if nothing hinders the natural process. That would include a clump of cells at conception.

the night watchman wrote:
Furthermore, even the most ardent pro-lifer allows for the acceptability of abortion under "special circumstances," such as rape, incest, or if the life of the mother is at stake. This clause clearly demonstrates that even they place the life of a "born individual" before than the life of an "unborn individual."


I see these as separate issues. Pro-lifers that look the other way under "special circumstances" are not conceding that those abortions are moral; they are conceding only that the issue sometimes has practical difficulties that can't be easily resolved. In the eyes of a pro-lifer, a woman who has an abortion after being raped has committed a wrong, but that same pro-lifer understands why that woman doesn't want to carry to term. Most pro-lifers seem willing to reluctantly tolerate--as opposed to accept--such cases in order to salvage the rest.

the night watchman wrote:
In the end, I think there are better choices than abortion, but taking away the option solves nothing.


I agree, but I'm always intrigued by this line of reasoning (which includes me): If there's nothing wrong with abortion, then why do we feel there are better options?

Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
I agree, but I'm always intrigued by this line of reasoning (which includes me): If there's nothing wrong with abortion, then why do we feel there are better options?


To me, adoption is a better option, but is often unsuccessful, much too often, in fact.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:


I'm not sure I can accept your analogy. Surely a clump of live human cells is closer to a "born individual" than a corpse, which is a clump of dead or dying cells?


Well, that?s not to say an embryo is not more alive than a corpse, but a human being, I think we?ll agree, is more than just biology. ?Being? is the operative word here. We are beings of past and potential, of personality and capability, of thought and emotion, and of unique perspective. Neither an embryo nor a corpse possesses all of these necessary qualities.

beltmann wrote:
Unplanned accidents and physical complications are natural interventions, while abortions are artificial interventions. By potential human, I think most pro-lifers mean a viable life that will certainly reach born status if nothing hinders the natural process. That would include a clump of cells at conception.


Well, that point of view seems to suggest that anyone unwilling to try for conception at every available opportunity is just as guilty of enacting an artificial intervention as someone who gets an abortion ? or uses a condom. Each ovum and sperm is a potential human, after all. I realize pro-lifers don?t see it this way, but that?s why I think their position is self-contradictory.

beltmann wrote:
Pro-lifers that look the other way under "special circumstances" are not conceding that those abortions are moral; they are conceding only that the issue sometimes has practical difficulties that can't be easily resolved. In the eyes of a pro-lifer, a woman who has an abortion after being raped has committed a wrong, but that same pro-lifer understands why that woman doesn't want to carry to term. Most pro-lifers seem willing to reluctantly tolerate--as opposed to accept--such cases in order to salvage the rest.


That still strikes me as inconsistent. One situation is more preferable than the other based solely on the experience of the woman. An "unborn" that is the result of a rape is no less "innocent" than an "unborn" that is the result of promiscuous sex. To tolerate abortion for one reason and not another is, at best, a political maneuver.

beltman wrote:


If there's nothing wrong with abortion, then why do we feel there are better options?


That's taking me to brass tacks. Laughing The difference is, unlike pro-lifers, I'm not proclaiming black-and-white morality. By ?better,? I think I?m suggesting that some choices are more emotionally rewarding than others. I know women who have gotten abortions and then experienced a deep and unrelieved guilt for ever afterwards. There is no moral fabric to the cosmos, but there are choices we make as individuals that we have to live with.
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 09.27.2003 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:


To me, adoption is a better option, but is often unsuccessful, much too often, in fact.


What makes you think that?
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, half of it is that not enough people want to adopt. The other half is the conditions of living in a shelter in the places where most unplanned births are. Not to generalize or stereotype, but that place is, percentage wise, the inner-cities.
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