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Regarding abortion...
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Danny Baldwin
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Joined: 26 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
Replacing the devil's advocate cap... I think that's acceptable, but I fail to see how it relates to the issue of abortion.


Definitely agreed; but that was about all I could answer the Third Man's response with, to get my point across.

beltmann wrote:
I think many pro-lifers would respond with this: In your scenario, you make the determination for yourself, while in the case of abortion, someone else makes the determination for you. Your desire to express a personal preference for yourself reveals a respect for the human will--self-ownership--that is denied to victims of abortion.


If they could make a choice, there would be no problem. This is why we don't force abortion on anyone--it's an option. It's ultimately up to the parents, which is, in a way, sad, for they're the ones that got them into such an unwanted situation (of course rape, and such, is a whole different issue).
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
This is why we don't force abortion on anyone--it's an option.


Many pro-lifers, of course, would argue that we do force abortion on others--forced upon every fetus/human being that is terminated.

(I'm trying to avoid loaded language here, like "every baby that is slaughtered." That raises another interesting point about this issue, which is the debate regarding semantics. The phrases pro-life and anti-choice may have the same denotation, but they certainly do not share a connotation, which helps explain why even agreeing on terms by which we discuss this issue has become politicized.)

Eric
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
It's ultimately up to the parents, which is, in a way, sad, for they're the ones that got them into such an unwanted situation.


Again, many pro-lifers would argue that their "choice" was in deciding to have sex. Once that decision was made, they now have an obligation to accept with responsibility any potential consequences of that action, including pregnancy. As I said before, I think that's a rather harsh, black-and-white, and unrealistic way of looking at things--it completely disregards pragmatic issues--but it's an argument I've heard many times: People have a choice to have sex or not, but not to kill their child.

Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:


Again, many pro-lifers would argue that their "choice" was in deciding to have sex. Once that decision was made, they now have an obligation to accept with responsibility any potential consequences of that action, including pregnancy. As I said before, I think that's a rather harsh, black-and-white, and unrealistic way of looking at things--it completely disregards pragmatic issues--but it's an argument I've heard many times: People have a choice to have sex or not, but not to kill their child.


I would answer back: do those people who had sex, and didn't really want the baby, deserve to raise it themselves? And, if so, wouldn't abortion scar them enough, to make them not do it again?
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certainly not comfortable justifying abortion on the grounds that it serves as a psychological and physical punishment for promiscuous people, especially if an innocent creature is caught in the crossfire.

Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither am I, for that matter. But, you must think, if one does have an abortion--are they really going to do the same thing over again?
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
Neither am I, for that matter. But, you must think, if one does have an abortion--are they really going to do the same thing over again?


Well, I suppose that depends on the individual and their own unique experiences and perspectives. I know women who were devastasted after having an abortion; I also know several women that have had multiple abortions with no regrets whatsoever.

As for "doing the same thing over again," I assume you mean accidentally becoming pregnant. A first mistake may indeed lead to better prevention methods, but beyond abstinence there are few guarantees: it's certainly possible that another accident might occur, even with careful planning. Should we frown upon such people?

Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if they are married, or in an otherwise long-term, committed relationship? I'm sensing that you're thinking about this only in terms of teenagers, but unwanted pregnancies are not limited to groping adolescents.

Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I am thinking about the entire spectrum. My answer stays the same. Even though the way it is far from great, I still believe you should abstain if you don't want children, but people will never practice this; plain and simple. This is one of the reasons why I am for abortion.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
I still believe you should abstain if you don't want children, but people will never practice this; plain and simple. This is one of the reasons why I am for abortion.


Hi Danny,

I'm a bit confused: If you believe that people ought to abstain unless they want children, is that because the only function of sex is procreation? If so, is that because the act of procreation is serious, even reverent? If so, how does that reconcile with supporting abortion, which intervenes with the serious act of procreation? It sounds like your position simultaneously values and devalues procreation. Am I missing something? Perhaps a clarification would help.

Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:


I'm a bit confused: If you believe that people ought to abstain unless they want children, is that because the only function of sex is procreation? If so, is that because the act of procreation is serious, even reverent?


No of course it isn't the only fuction of sex, but, in a sense, it should be. While this is definitely hard to accept, it's the only reason why we're having this abortion debate in the first place, right? There will be a 100%, full proof type of protection invented soon, but until then, the only way to stop the abortion issue, what both sides are really trying to do is abstinence.

beltmann wrote:
If so, how does that reconcile with supporting abortion, which intervenes with the serious act of procreation? It sounds like your position simultaneously values and devalues procreation. Am I missing something? Perhaps a clarification would help.


Yes, I've expressed that in quite an unclear manner, I do believe.

I think that we need abortion until there is that 100% effective protection, and that's why I support it. Really, it depends on how you define support. Without abortion right now, I think that there would be a countless list of problems. It's important that we make an option as long as unwanted births continue to come. If we were to eliminate abortion, I don't think that it would stop (or even lessen) these accidents.
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likeadeadduck
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is it that killing a newborn baby is murder, but if they had been killed just a few minutes earlier its ok? Does a fetus suddenly go through some magical transformation into a human being the moment they leave the womb? a fetus is just a person who has not fully developed.

Besides, if abortion is allowed, it will just give teenagers an excuse to have unprotected sewx whenever they want and not worry about the consequences. "Oh darn, im pregnant again. Now i'll have to spend $50 on another abortion. Oh well."

Even if the pregnancy is the result of something like rap.e, that does not justify stopping the exsistence of an inoccent human being who had nothing to do with it. It's not the baby's fault she got pregnant. And who says their going to end up spending there whole lives in a miserable foster home? Some of the greatest men of all time were adopted. What if Einstien's mom had decided to get an abortion?
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

likeadeadduck wrote:
Besides, if abortion is allowed, it will just give teenagers an excuse to have unprotected sewx whenever they want and not worry about the consequences. "Oh darn, im pregnant again. Now i'll have to spend $50 on another abortion. Oh well."


If it's not allowed, then we'll have more kids sitting around, unadopted, in shelters.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 09.28.2003 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

likeadeadduck wrote:
Besides, if abortion is allowed, it will just give teenagers an excuse to have unprotected sewx whenever they want and not worry about the consequences. "Oh darn, im pregnant again. Now i'll have to spend $50 on another abortion. Oh well."


I'm not sure anyone has such a cavalier attitude about having an abortion, but I think what you're trying to say is that a culture that tolerates abortion is one that devalues accountability and devalues human life in general. If indeed abortion is terminating a human life--and as a society, that definition still seems unresolved--you may have a point.

Danny, if abortion is defined as taking a young human life--and I grant that's a large if--I don't think the size of shelter populations has anything to do with whether abortion is acceptable or not. For pro-lifers, that argument is no different than saying that we ought to knock off all the cognitively-disabled, because that will make everything go smoother for the rest of us. Do we honor human life for its own sake, in its various forms, or for what it contributes to society?

Mind you, I'm not taking a personal stand as pro-life or pro-choice. I'm just trying to draw distinctions that are relevant to the discussion.

Eric
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