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How do you feel about gay marriage?
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stefanieduckwitz
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 1:20 am    Post subject: How do you feel about gay marriage? Reply with quote

Do you think Bush is right in making an ammendment to make it illegal?



I personally have nothing against it, whatever floats their boat I guess... Rolling Eyes
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Erickson
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bush has no right to ban gay marriage. It should be legal.





oh, and on a side note against bush

www.youthless.tk

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Idiot Son of An Asshole
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As David Letterman said, "Gay people have the right to be as miserable as everyone else."



I have no problem with same-sex marriage on a moral level, and since I'm not religious the idea doesn't violate any concepts of "divine mandate." And even if I was religious, how would I have the right to enforce my religious convictions on others? I have yet to hear a good argument against allowing same-sex couples to marry; those I have heard are mere assertions without explanation or evidential backup, or are flat-out ridiculous. The permission of gay marriage is a huge sociological step, and I?m all for hearing debate. But so far the opposing side has offered nothing convincing.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the night watchman wrote:
The permission of gay marriage is a huge sociological step, and I’m all for hearing debate.


That's where I stand. I'm fascinated by the evolution of society, and in this case I'm fascinated by how this shift is happening rather rapidly, perhaps outpacing majority opinion. As for the ethical and moral contexts, I'm deeply in favor of equal rights between human beings. Isn't that an ethical and moral position?



Eric
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
I'm deeply in favor of equal rights between human beings. Isn't [granting same-sex couples the right to marry] an ethical and moral position?




That's the fundamental level of it for me too. But that's a secular position. Many who oppose it, even if they don't admit it, place the morals and ethics of their religious convictions, or, at least how they've interpreted their chosen religion, above secular equality. Then there are the panic-stricken, who say things like, "If we allow a man to marry a man or a woman to marry a woman, how long will it be before it's legal for a man to marry a horse?!" Anyone who can honestly not answer that question should remove themselves from social decision-making.



But there is one "if/then" question that's actually not unreasonable: Will the legalization of same-sex marriage open the door for legalized polygamy? And, as a sidebar question, would legalized, socially accepted polygamy be a problem?
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stefanieduckwitz
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question, but I guess I have nothing against that either. If each is happy with each owns position, why not?
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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some arguments against polygamy I found after a quick search:



Welfare crisis: "[T]he American taxpayer pays for much of this lifestyle. Recent records show in one year residents here collected more than $8-million from social services ? including food stamps, welfare, health care ? but the entire town paid less than $100,000 in income taxes.



"'They are told to go on welfare,' Jessop said. 'It's called, "bleeding the beast." They find it amusing that Satan is supporting God's work.'"



(link: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/p05.html#legal )



Marriage of underage girls



Arranged marriages and women treated as property in some religious sects




The last two could be dealt with using the same legal prohibitions found in monogamous marriage. However, huge families causing a drain on welfare is a genuine problem. People have the right to live the way they want to live, provided their lifestyle does not interfere with someone else's. However, it's not illegal for people on welfare to continue to pop out kids they can't afford to raise, so the potential economic burden that could be applied to plural marriage doesn't seem to have precedent.
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schalla
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with everyone. whatever people want to do they should be entitled to do it! if you dont like it, then just stay away from it. i think that they should just let people marry other people, if they are gay or not!
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 03.22.2004 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the night watchman wrote:
Many who oppose it, even if they don't admit it, place the morals and ethics of their religious convictions, or, at least how they've interpreted their chosen religion, above secular equality.


As a person who frequently socializes with religius conservatives, one of the things I'm most interested in is how many of them feel deep compassion for their fellow man, and have difficulty reconciling rigid moral rules with that compassion. It's a conundrum for many of them, and "hate" never enters the equation (regardless of what the media would have us believe). I personally feel that we all must recognize that we live in a secular republic and not a theocracy. One of our strengths as a nation is that we have safeguards in place to prevent faith convictions from morphing automatically into law. No one has the right to impose religious morality If those convictions can be logically defended as right, proper, and beneficial for society as a whole, then proceed on legal grounds, not religious grounds. And if you are in the minority, work to change public opinion, but don't impose your morality on the majority.



the night watchman wrote:
Then there are the panic-stricken, who say things like, "If we allow a man to marry a man or a woman to marry a woman, how long will it be before it's legal for a man to marry a horse?!" Anyone who can honestly not answer that question should remove themselves from social decision-making.


LOL, and agreed.



the night watchman wrote:
But there is one "if/then" question that's actually not unreasonable: Will the legalization of same-sex marriage open the door for legalized polygamy? And, as a sidebar question, would legalized, socially accepted polygamy be a problem?


Actually, I think this touches on why so many conservatives oppose same-sex marriage. The basic social argument against gay marriage is that it may weaken the most basic building block on the foundation of society, the procreating family, and therefore weaken all of society. We can certainly argue whether that's absurd--I know where I stand--but I think the same argument would be made regarding polygamy, that tolerating it will ultimately sink all ships.



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the night watchman
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PostPosted: 03.23.2004 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:


The basic social argument against gay marriage is that it may weaken the most basic building block on the foundation of society, the procreating family, and therefore weaken all of society.




I've heard that one too. I guess my basic argument is that the union of marriage is more than just an institution aimed at procreation. If a heterosexual couple is unable to have children, or is uninterested in having children, then should that couple also be banned from marriage?
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 03.23.2004 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the night watchman wrote:
I've heard that one too. I guess my basic argument is that the union of marriage is more than just an institution aimed at procreation.


I agree completely.



Eric
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 03.23.2004 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, here I come again, your favorite big, bad conservative wolf!



I'm against it for economical issues purely, and I wrote a whole big piece about it, but since I'm relatively sick of the whole topic, I don't feel like discusssing it.
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stefanieduckwitz
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PostPosted: 03.23.2004 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

preeeeeeettty sure you can just do that, you HAVE to explain, or what you just said is completely pointless!
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 03.23.2004 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:
Oh, here I come again, your favorite big, bad conservative wolf!



I'm against it for economical issues purely, and I wrote a whole big piece about it, but since I'm relatively sick of the whole topic, I don't feel like discusssing it.


Perhaps I've misunderstood you Danny--and please correct me if I have--but I have a few questions: Is there a price tag on human rights? Should we deny basic human rights in order to preserve an economic status quo? Is it acceptable to continue to oppress one group, so other groups can financially benefit? Wasn't that one of the primary arguments in favor of slavery?



Sometimes doing the right thing is expensive, and I suppose I'm an idealist: I don't think dollars outweigh morality, ethics, and equality. To my mind, when considering an issue related to human rights, the financial cost of change is just about the last item on my priority list.



And I certainly don't consider conservatives "big bad wolves." I'm a reformed die-hard conservative myself, having spent my teen and college years as a registered Republican, campaigning for candidates and attending rallies. (I was nearly a political science major.) What's unique about me, I think, is that I'm not fully converted--because of my personal experience, I know that both conservatives and liberals generally hold convictions that are predicated upon what each believes is the "right thing" for society at large, and both often have valid, thoughtful, logical reasons for those convictions. We contain multitudes.



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matt header
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PostPosted: 03.23.2004 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite argument in favor of gay marriage, written by columnist Dan Savage (who happens to be homosexual):



http://www.thestranger.com/2004-03-04/savage.html



I agree with everything he says. They say marriage is about making babies? Supporting American capitalism? Supporting the American nuclear family stereotype? About the appearance of normality? Well, bullshit, here's what marriage is about: love. There's not another good reason for getting married other than that, and that's what matters.
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