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Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says
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xAndyx
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PostPosted: 06.22.2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050622/pl_nm/security_iraq_cia_dc



You know I was always behind that republican theory that trying to march through the middle-east killing terrorists was a good idea. I mean you can see now that its working so well. I mean we have made a country more unstable than it was before. We have granted them the same economic problems that plague our country, and look now we are making new terrorists that the next generation can fight. I am so proud...
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Monkeypox
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

xAndyx wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050622/pl_nm/security_iraq_cia_dc



You know I was always behind that republican theory that trying to march through the middle-east killing terrorists was a good idea. I mean you can see now that its working so well. I mean we have made a country more unstable than it was before. We have granted them the same economic problems that plague our country, and look now we are making new terrorists that the next generation can fight. I am so proud...




Okay, as stupid as this policy is, I can't let your reasoning get by...



1) Stability - I'll pretend for a second that this thing is being done right (which it isn't), but the premise the US is working under is that you go in, oust the "evil" dictator, prop up our own little puppet government, and make beaucoup bones... If the decision-making is done well, you end up with Israel (which can be used as a good or bad example depending on how you look at it). But, I digress... Right after you take power, and artificially hand it back, there will be instability. Long-term, the US is perfectly capable of creating that stability, we're just too stupid, lazy, and short-sided to do it right - from the Prez on down. It takes a long time and a consistent US presence. I would estimate in the 20-yr range with a lot of resources employed. Americans don't WANT to spend a long time somewhere, not when Lindsay Lohan is losing so much weight and Katie Holmes is converting to Scientology. Yes, Iraq was, in fact, one of the most stable countries in the area. Quashing all dissent can do that for you. Stability in and of itself may not be something to brag about, given those circumstances.



2) Economy - I'm pretty sure most countries in the world would supernova with joy if they inherited all the economic problems of the wealthiest and most privileged country on the planet. I don't think it's all daisies here, but I've been to places where people bathe in their own feces and live in huts, and I'm not talking about The South.



I agree with your premises, but I'm not prone to the sort of alarmism I'm sensing.
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason that it is such a mess is because we haven't really fully taken over. The whole attempt has been half-assed. You don't try to install a government when you're not even in control of an insurgency. In order to take control, the offensive has to be stronger. If it isn't, the entire attempt proves worthless. Air-power is necessary.
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xAndyx
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

disregard this box....please read next
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Last edited by xAndyx on 06.23.2005 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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xAndyx
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

Monkeypox wrote:


2) Economy - I'm pretty sure most countries in the world would supernova with joy if they inherited all the economic problems of the wealthiest and most privileged country on the planet. I don't think it's all daisies here, but I've been to places where people bathe in their own feces and live in huts, and I'm not talking about The South.




I wasnt talking a direct replication of the economy, only its many flaws. We have essentially made the economy far worse in Iraq than it was pre-occupation. It is sad to call ourselves Americans when we are all assumed to have the SAD veiws and abilities of our administration. I am not saying that removing the dictator was wrong...but we have done the absolute worst job of trying to rebuild a country that has ever been seen. This is mainly due to the fact that we are again too snobish and think we have the right to exclude the world from the rebuilding of Iraq because we were the one that ousted the leader. The problem is that the United States doesn't have nearly the resources or the knowledge to do such a thing. Our leaders understand nothing of their clulture, and nothing of how to run an Arab nation. They think that they can make an Arab US and everything will be okay...thats not the case. You said that they could become another Isreal...when thats not looking to hot either. I don't even see a solution to the problem to be honest.



Danny Baldwin wrote:


The reason that it is such a mess is because we haven't really fully taken over. The whole attempt has been half-assed. You don't try to install a government when you're not even in control of an insurgency. In order to take control, the offensive has to be stronger. If it isn't, the entire attempt proves worthless. Air-power is necessary.





What is your damn fettish with "AIR POWER"!?!? An offensive, no matter how strong, will never remove the insurgency because they are only growing day by day dut to the hate that has been spread by stupid right wings like those in terrorists prisons that burn the Koran and make them bark like dogs. They think that its possible to overintimidate the terrorists when all that does is make things worse. We forget that after WW1 when we decided to punish Germany for its war crimes which only lead to greater hostility and the rise of Hitler and the Nazi cause. You think this is any different. We are only giving them more anger, more ammunition to feed their youth, and a rise to the next generation who will dispise us for what we have done.
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Monkeypox
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

xAndyx wrote:


I wasnt talking a direct replication of the economy, only its many flaws. We have essentially made the economy far worse in Iraq than it was pre-occupation. It is sad to call ourselves Americans when we are all assumed to have the SAD veiws and abilities of our administration. I am not saying that removing the dictator was wrong...but we have done the absolute worst job of trying to rebuild a country that has ever been seen. This is mainly due to the fact that we are again too snobish and think we have the right to exclude the world from the rebuilding of Iraq because we were the one that ousted the leader. The problem is that the United States doesn't have nearly the resources or the knowledge to do such a thing. Our leaders understand nothing of their clulture, and nothing of how to run an Arab nation. They think that they can make an Arab US and everything will be okay...thats not the case. You said that they could become another Isreal...when thats not looking to hot either. I don't even see a solution to the problem to be honest.




We definitely have both the resources and the knowledge to do the job of rebuilding the economy correctly. What I would say we lack is interest and, more to the point, PATIENCE, a problem which your own posts allude to. Expecting to see a thriving ecomony in the middle of a rebuilding effort is more than a little ridiculous. Again, I don't believe in our "mission" there, but these are the wrong things to harp on.



Quote:
They think that its possible to overintimidate the terrorists when all that does is make things worse. We forget that after WW1 when we decided to punish Germany for its war crimes which only lead to greater hostility and the rise of Hitler and the Nazi cause. You think this is any different. We are only giving them more anger, more ammunition to feed their youth, and a rise to the next generation who will dispise us for what we have done.




So then you don't believe in punishment? You realize, of course, that we (and "we" in this instance included more countries than the US, unlike our current unilateral actions) also punished the Germany after WWII.



Punishment in and of itself isn't the problem so much as methodology. We committed one of the most horrific acts of war imaginable on Japan and, having spent a bit of time there, can honestly say they dig us. Should I then attribute dropping A-bombs on countries to facilitating peace and economic stability to them? Of course not.



The reality is that Japan was a country we rebuilt correctly. Of course, it took a really long time and a strong military presence.



Danny made some excellent points. One of which was that you don't install a government until you've quelled the insurgency. Now, while you can't complete get rid of it, you can defuse it, but this requires resources and numbers, the kind that higher military officials were calling for but the White House rejected.
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xAndyx
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In WW2 we actually took a more progressive trend by actually trying to implement an economy where we encouraged the millitary buildup and culture of the country we were in. I agree that we are doing this in a smaller sense today, but we are still trying to push our ideals at to high of an extenet. We try to make them us, and that is not what they want to be.



I just dont see how any of this is constructive to life. Why do we feel the need to capitolize everyone to our ideals? Why do we feel the need to Westernize the world? We are turning everyone into nothing but robots that follow the same rules, the same culture, the same coldness, and lack the emotion that makes us who we are. We spend our lives trying to make everyone an emotionless puppet of the mass culture instead of trying to understand anything thats going on. Then one day when everyone wears the same shirt, and everyone follows the same routine we'll wonder what the hell we have to live for.
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

xAndyx wrote:
but we have done the absolute worst job of trying to rebuild a country that has ever been seen.


That's because we shouldn't be rebuilding it yet.



xAndyx wrote:
This is mainly due to the fact that we are again too snobish and think we have the right to exclude the world from the rebuilding of Iraq because we were the one that ousted the leader.


Oh, so now that we put out billions of dollars into a threat that was mainly going after us, we should let some heavily socialist countries come in and give the terrorists free healthcare?



xAndyx wrote:
I don't even see a solution to the problem to be honest.


Why don't we run away and go grab some hot-mashmellow cocoa from mommy!?



xAndyx wrote:
What is your damn fettish with "AIR POWER"!?!? An offensive, no matter how strong, will never remove the insurgency because they are only growing day by day dut to the hate that has been spread by stupid right wings like those in terrorists prisons that burn the Koran and make them bark like dogs.


Oh, so now we're supposed to be loyally treating prisoners who would kill us in a second? Now they're the reason we're the "big bad Americans"? When they should be going straight to the firing squad, we're giving them the luxury of "barking like dogs."



xAndyx wrote:
They think that its possible to overintimidate the terrorists when all that does is make things worse. We forget that after WW1 when we decided to punish Germany for its war crimes which only lead to greater hostility and the rise of Hitler and the Nazi cause. You think this is any different.


I see it as far more comparable to WWII, if we want to take that approach. And what happened to the Nazis after that war, Andy?
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xAndyx wrote:
Why do we feel the need to capitolize everyone to our ideals? Why do we feel the need to Westernize the world?


Why are all of the countries in that area a complete disaster? Does "Westernizing" mean setting up democracies and setting up police and national secuirty? Oh my God! What flaws of the Western System! Be damned Bush!
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xAndyx
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

Danny Baldwin wrote:


That's because we shouldn't be rebuilding it yet.





So we should just let the people sit without anything while we march through the country and remove the entire insurgency. And then, and only then, it is okay to establish government and some sort of stability?



Danny Baldwin wrote:


Oh, so now that we put out billions of dollars into a threat that was mainly going after us, we should let some heavily socialist countries come in and give the terrorists free healthcare?





Yes! It would be the moral thing to do. If we let the "socialist" countries that you have so absent-mindedly labeled in and help in the process it would not be costing us the billions of dollars and the efforts would increase 10 fold.



Danny Baldwin wrote:


Oh, so now we're supposed to be loyally treating prisoners who would kill us in a second? Now they're the reason we're the "big bad Americans"? When they should be going straight to the firing squad, we're giving them the luxury of "barking like dogs."





We set up rights for POW's for a reason! We did not make the laws so that we could break them and say..."Well, they are terrorists so we don't have to follow what we helped to set up". If we do these things then we are no better than those we are trying to stop.



Danny Baldwin wrote:


I see it as far more comparable to WWII, if we want to take that approach. And what happened to the Nazis after that war, Andy?





After WW2 a united effort of many countries came together and help rebuild Germany, and all of Europe's, economy and stability. We did not focous on checkbooks, and we didn't complain that because we took the primary advance, we should do the work. just because it ended doesnt mean that it could not have been avoided, like this situation, but go ahead kill everyone...I'm sure it will work.
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beltmann
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

xAndyx wrote:
We set up rights for POW's for a reason! We did not make the laws so that we could break them and say..."Well, they are terrorists so we don't have to follow what we helped to set up". If we do these things then we are no better than those we are trying to stop.


Agreed. I'm reminded of that Nancy Gibbs quote that once was my sig line: "When we are reduced to insisting that our depravity isn't as bad as the other guy's, we have fallen deep into a pit of moral equivalence that reveals what we have lost.? Perhaps we have lost the notion of leading by example?



Eric
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
xAndyx wrote:
We set up rights for POW's for a reason! We did not make the laws so that we could break them and say..."Well, they are terrorists so we don't have to follow what we helped to set up". If we do these things then we are no better than those we are trying to stop.


Agreed. I'm reminded of that Nancy Gibbs quote that once was my sig line: "When we are reduced to insisting that our depravity isn't as bad as the other guy's, we have fallen deep into a pit of moral equivalence that reveals what we have lost.? Perhaps we have lost the notion of leading by example?



Eric




The problem is that the US government has determined that these are not POWs but unlawful combatants, which are not protected in the same sense POWs are. Unfortunately, according to the Geneva convention, that can't just be automatically assigned to people, but rather they are assumed to be POWs until some group (I can't remember the term, but it has to be at least 3 people, and somewhere in there "competent" is used) of people reviews EACH CASE to determine if they are an unlawful combatant.



So then what is the US to do? Well, they SHOULD be complying with the rules they helped establish, but they pretty much threw that out the window with unilateral action in the 1st place.



The other problem is that it's the UN's job to enforce these rules, and their efficacy has dwindled . The United States should be punished by the UN for violating human rights, but if they don't punish countries where children are being sold into slavery or killed due to their gender or countries where genocide is special of the day, then it's increasingly unlikely they'll do anything to stop the most powerful nation in the world from mistreating POWs.
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xAndyx
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PostPosted: 06.23.2005 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

Monkeypox wrote:


The other problem is that it's the UN's job to enforce these rules, and their efficacy has dwindled . The United States should be punished by the UN for violating human rights, but if they don't punish countries where children are being sold into slavery or killed due to their gender or countries where genocide is special of the day, then it's increasingly unlikely they'll do anything to stop the most powerful nation in the world from mistreating POWs.




I agree, the UN should do something, but the UN has never really established itself as a unified force. The UN is vastly controlled by US and Brittish leaders and would do nothing. It is sad.



However, I feel that even if these people are not considered POW's, they should be treated with rights. As Beltmann said, we should not sink to their level, and we should lead by example that we will not torture or harm prisoners even if that is the least that they will do.
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Danny Baldwin
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PostPosted: 06.24.2005 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

xAndyx wrote:


So we should just let the people sit without anything while we march through the country and remove the entire insurgency. And then, and only then, it is okay to establish government and some sort of stability?


If you want that government to work in the long-term and actually prosper at a certain time rather than falling again, then yes



xAndyx wrote:
Yes! It would be the moral thing to do. If we let the "socialist" countries that you have so absent-mindedly labeled in and help in the process it would not be costing us the billions of dollars and the efforts would increase 10 fold.


It might save money, but the kind of country that would be built would be a disaster, especially considering how it must function in the Middle East.



xAndyx wrote:
We set up rights for POW's for a reason! We did not make the laws so that we could break them and say..."Well, they are terrorists so we don't have to follow what we helped to set up". If we do these things then we are no better than those we are trying to stop.


So now we're trying to compare making them dance to Christina Aguilara music to them cutting our heads off? Sounds very...equal.



xAndyx wrote:
After WW2 a united effort of many countries came together and help rebuild Germany, and all of Europe's, economy and stability. We did not focous on checkbooks, and we didn't complain that because we took the primary advance, we should do the work. just because it ended doesnt mean that it could not have been avoided, like this situation, but go ahead kill everyone...I'm sure it will work.


We have other countries on our side. Let's not ignore that.
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PostPosted: 06.24.2005 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says Reply with quote

beltmann wrote:
Perhaps we have lost the notion of leading by example?


Perhaps we have lost the notion that time should not be wasted in trying to reform those who are already terrorists?
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