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Danny Baldwin
Studio Exec
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1354
Location: San Diego, CA
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 Posted: 03.11.2005 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Only they stuck first. There's the difference.
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Danny Baldwin
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beltmann
Studio Exec
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 2341
Location: West Bend, WI
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| Posted: 03.11.2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Danny Baldwin wrote: | | Only they stuck first. There's the difference. |
That's one interpretation of events, based on a specific point-of-view--and it's an interpretation they would no doubt reject. Why would they target America? Because they believed that we were misusing our global influence and exploiting less powerful nations for selfish gain. In other words, they believed our actions were a direct and corrupt attack on their rights and values; they believe we struck first. You and I can disagree with their assessment--and I'm sure we agree that their response was immoral and inexcusable--but in order to effectively address the situation, we have to accurately understand their point-of-view as well as our own. Instead, the White House seems intent on turning the war into a good-versus-evil cartoon, completely disregarding the true complexity of the situation.
Eric
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the night watchman
Studio Exec
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Dark, run-down shack by the graveyard.
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| Posted: 03.11.2005 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to clarify my position a little. I don't think an individual like bin Laden can be negotiated with and, more, shouldn't be negotiated with any more than Charles Manson. It has nothing to do with anyone being "worthy" or "deserving;" he and his generals are criminals and should be brought to justice. But as Andy said, "all human beings should have a voice." When a group doesn't have a voice, when it has no power, when it is under the thumb of unreachable, irresistible forces, the tactics of terrorism become its only weapon. The US, and the rest of the world, has to reach those individuals who are on the cusp of hatred. Obliterating cities and shrugging off civilian casualties is only going to prove to them what Al-Qaeda and other hostile organizations have already told them. The US has the right to defend itself, it is true; but this conflict is unlike either of the World Wars, unlike any kind of conflict dealing with borders and nations. As such, novel tactics need to be assessed, and if the Left is dragging it feet too much, the Right is simply being obtuse.
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the night watchman
Studio Exec
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Dark, run-down shack by the graveyard.
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| Posted: 03.11.2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Danny Baldwin wrote: | | Only they stuck first. There's the difference. |
If you're referring to 9/11, Iraq and Iran never struck at all. Technically, neither did Afghanistan. And the Iraq War was "pre-emptive," remember? The biggest problem I have with Right regarding the war on terrorism is how easily it groups all Middle Eastern countries together, and sometimes all Moslems together, and says, "They done it! They're the enemy!" when it's clearly not that cut-and-dried.
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"If you're talking about censorship, and what things should be shown and what things shouldn't be shown, I've said that as an artist you have no social responsibility whatsoever."
-David Cronenberg |
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beltmann
Studio Exec
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 2341
Location: West Bend, WI
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| Posted: 03.11.2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| the night watchman wrote: | | The biggest problem I have with Right regarding the war on terrorism is how easily it groups all Middle Eastern countries together, and sometimes all Moslems together, and says, "They done it! They're the enemy!" when it's clearly not that cut-and-dried. |
Agreed, and I'm glad that you specified the Right rather than the White House, because as much as I disagree with how Bush is handling the war on terrorism, I don't think he has lumped all ME nations together. In fact, I think he has gone out of his way to distinguish between the terrorists and Muslims in general. (His willingness to tolerate a high number of civilian deaths--not to mention Arab-American imprisonments--as collateral damage is another matter altogether.)
Eric
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"When I was in Barcelona they showed pornography on regular television. I'm assuming it's the same way in Mexico since they also speak Spanish." - IMDb user comment |
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xAndyx
Director
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 207
Location: Platteville, WI
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| Posted: 03.12.2005 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| the night watchman wrote: | | I don't think an individual like bin Laden can be negotiated with and, more, shouldn't be negotiated with any more than Charles Manson. |
I agree. I did not mean to imply that we should negotiate with terrorist leaders, that is impossible. What people have to realize is like the Nazis in WW2 had the German people under its thumb of lies and propaganda, Terrorists have the Middle Eastern youth under its thumb. Growing up as a child it is easy to be impressed by the power of a strong leader. They are fed that we are evil and they are attacking the west to save themselves and their countries. Like it was said earlier, if we simply attack these countries we are only reaffirming to these people that we are the bad guys trying to take away their homes. We need to prove to them we are not out for that, and I don't see any way in which violence solves that issue.
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Jordanio
Camera Operator
Joined: 29 May 2004
Posts: 93
Location: West Bend
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| Posted: 03.13.2005 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I would like to clarify something on the first page of this thread. When Andy referred to the "Utopian ideals of Marx", he wasn't exactly wrong: in order for Marx's true goal to be reached (perfect social-equality and the withering-away of any form of government), a utopian society would be necessary.
...
Alright, I will retreat into my turtle shell now.
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xAndyx
Director
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 207
Location: Platteville, WI
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| Posted: 03.14.2005 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Jordanio wrote: | | When Andy referred to the "Utopian ideals of Marx", he wasn't exactly wrong: in order for Marx's true goal to be reached (perfect social-equality and the withering-away of any form of government), a utopian society would be necessary. |
As I thought, but I didn't want to make a fool of myself. We can not let this thread die flipsiders! The problem is that most people on this board, including myself are liberals so we have no one to fight other than poor Danny. We need to draw in a more conservative audience somehow, just to crush them in the end ofcoarse.
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One day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will repent, and we will send you to whatever god you wish.
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matt header
Studio Exec
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 623
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: 03.14.2005 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Where's Iversonboss? He could join in the conversation.
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"I don't like talking to people I know, but strangers I have no problem with." -- Larry David, "Curb Your Enthusiasm" |
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Danny Baldwin
Studio Exec
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1354
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: 03.15.2005 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| matt header wrote: | | Where's Iversonboss? He could join in the conversation. |
I was thinking the same thing.
I really haven't had time to respond to this, guys. Sorry...hopefully, soon. But, five hours of math homework aren't all that easy to avoid.
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Danny Baldwin
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xAndyx
Director
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 207
Location: Platteville, WI
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| Posted: 03.15.2005 1:14 am Post subject: |
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I am awaiting round two 
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One day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will repent, and we will send you to whatever god you wish.
-The Boondock Saints |
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xAndyx
Director
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 207
Location: Platteville, WI
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| Posted: 03.21.2005 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Today our beloved Secretary of State is off in Asia trying to stop the world from developing atomic weapons. One thing that has always astonished me is the fact that we as a western power are allowed to posses nuclear weapons along with out allies, but the rest of the world is told that if they develop such a program the will be exterminated from the world economy, and even attacked. I understand that the aim is to keep weapons from terrorists, but then why are we not taking steps to disarm aswell?
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One day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will repent, and we will send you to whatever god you wish.
-The Boondock Saints |
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beltmann
Studio Exec
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 2341
Location: West Bend, WI
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| Posted: 03.21.2005 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Andy, there's a phrase for this seemingly hypocritical mindset: American exceptionalism.
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"When I was in Barcelona they showed pornography on regular television. I'm assuming it's the same way in Mexico since they also speak Spanish." - IMDb user comment |
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xAndyx
Director
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 207
Location: Platteville, WI
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| Posted: 03.22.2005 2:57 am Post subject: |
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We cant even debate on here, no one disagrees, other than Danny... who has fled California to warn president Bush of my disgruntled attitude.
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One day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will repent, and we will send you to whatever god you wish.
-The Boondock Saints |
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